T, I apologize for not communicating more clearly, and also that I didn’t suggest that you could write in Hebrew. (Typing in Hebrew would take me too long.) I think you’re right, too, that we look at things quite differently, something I had said at the beginning, and that also ‘confuses’ our language. Hopefully, God will bring us both closer to Him, and so to each other.
Shana tova,
Howard
At 05:03 PM 9/15/2008 +0200, you wrote:
I find it amusing how i can say one thing and be understood in a way that didn’t even cross my mind. obviously we live in parallel worlds, and this is why we don’t even share the same language.
be well
t
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: what’s in the name Notzri
It seems as if we have come full circle, T, in our exchanges, which for me, at least, has been enlightening and helpful. If I can close on a few points, which probably won’t find favor with you, but do answer for me to your last remarks:
— Everyone is called to convert/be converted! According to both the Tanach and the N.T., we have all worshipped idols and need to repent, and all persons are called to repent and believe the good news and be changed (converted) into the image of God’s Son, of God truly being our Father. It’s not only about faith and religion, but about our whole nature and being.
–We Jews didn’t as a people/nation receive/accept Yeshua before there were Gentile Christians and Christianity. Our first controversy is with the Lord our God Himself, afterwards with the goyim and the Christians. Christians need to ask themselves how well they have done in obeying their own particular calling with respect to Israel: provoke to jealousy and show mercy. (written in Romans)
–When I read the Tanach, every time there was a revival amongst the people was when they recognized and repented with regret and a broken heart over their disobedience to what was written in the Law of Moses and spoken/written by the prophets. Some examples with which I’m sure you are familiar are found in 2Kings 22:8-20; Daniel 9:13. In Nehemiah 8:7-8, the priests read from the Law and helped the people to understand (to make disciples, we could even say). In Isaiah 8:20, YHVH rebukes the people turning away from the Law and the testimony. In Malachi 3:22 (4:4 Eng), YHVH calls on Israel to remember the Law of Moses, that He had commanded from Horeb. And, of course, Moses himself said that a prophet like unto him would come, and that we must listen to him and to the words which YHVH God has put into His mouth. Yeshua a number of times in His ‘sermon on the mount’ spoke about what had either been written or had been said (‘oral law’?), “but I say to you . . . .”.
–It seems that what the Bible says has never been regarded very highly by the Jews, and we are simply a picture of human nature in this. I certainly didn’t consider the Tanach worth the treasure that it is before I believed that Jesus is actually the Messiah. We are the chosen people, and through us God has made clear for all to see what He is like, what people are like, what the enemies are like. You have put me (and others) in a category that can not satisfy or meet your approval: if we say we are Jews, you say we are just Christians; if we say we are Christians, you say we deny our Jewish identity and heritage. So I take rest in what Paul said (who had excelled beyond his peers in the Jewish religion as the Pharisees taught it), and I will not seek the praise or approval from men, but from God.
Respectfully,
Howard
T wrote:
Well, your own particular take is not of interest to most Jews since for them faith in Jesus means conversion. You can choose to ignore it but this is the single most important reason why Jews refuse to consider Yeshua seriously. Again what you want is of little consequence and presenting Yeshua with this “what the Bible says” slogan is so thoroughly Christian that it only intensify the sense for most Jews that they are dealing with converts. It is a wishful thinking that Israel will accept the Christian Jesus. they have refused to do so for 2000 years and will continue to do so, and for very good reasons.
t
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: what’s in the name Notzri
I nearly always start off by saying that I am a Jew who believes in Jesus/Yeshua. After that it doesn’t matter too much to me, but, like I said, and try to show in the teaching, I want people to understand what the Bible says a Notzri is, and even a Messianic/Christian, since the issue to me is not actually a Jewish-Gentile one, but who is Messiah and what does it mean to believe in, follow, belong to Him. Maybe the term Jew has become so synonymous with rabbinic Judaism that Christians have thought a Jew who believes in Jesus can’t be a Jew anymore. God hasn’t changed His thoughts even if people have — with more than enough help from the devil.
Howard
T wrote:
Notzri is not controversial, and this is why it is not a problem for most interpreters. However, when dealing with social and historical issues, the term notzri became synonymous with Christianity, hence we can’t use it. Messianic Jews who call themselves Christians abroad and Messianics in Israel are telling everybody that they are Christians, not Jews. ignoring the convention only strengthens misconceptions.
t
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: what’s in the name Notzri
Hi T,
Just to avoid any misunderstanding about my use of the name Notzri, it has to do with all believers in Yeshua, not to Gentile Christians only, nor to a Jewish sect, which seem more like the Samaritans in ‘kindred spirit’ (they don’t seem to know what they worship). It’s interesting that in all books and studies on the names of YHVH or Messiah that I have seen, the controversial name of Notzri is left out! To God be the glory and to the Lamb upon the throne!
Shavua tov,
Howard
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ __
Very timely! I’m glad you read it, T, and if any of it is helpful to your own article, you are welcome to make use of it.
When people ask me ‘what’ I am with respect to my faith, I say that I am a Jew who believes in Jesus as the Messiah. If they say that I am a Christian or a Notzri, I do not deny it, but rather use the opportunity to explain what those terms really mean if they don’t know. The first century Jewish believers were called Notzrim, whether honorably or not, to identify them with Yeshua.
What does bother me is when Jewish believers make a separation between being Jewish and being identified as a Notzri or Christian (even though the two words don’t actually translate the same), usually because they don’t know the true significance and just react to a negative impulse. So it’s not that we have to rush out and start calling ourselves Notzrim/Christian, but neither should be separate ourselves from the Lord or from the Body of Christ by rejecting such a name. Not all Jews or Israelis honor YHVH’s name or themselves as His people, yet today none of us believers (there are secular Israeli Jews who do) would think of somehow refusing to be identified as Jews or with Ahm Israel.
Let’s be consistent, which will, I think, help make for peace and healing in overall Messianic/Christian fellowship at large, and stop the mouth of those like Yad L’Achim who always use this hypocrisy against us.
T, if nothing more comes out of our exchanges than that you might see that I (and others similar to me) am not against, or out to obliterate, Jewishness or Israeliness, but rather to fulfill my/our identity and calling by being obedient to the New Covenant/Testament reality that Yeshua’s death on the cross and His resurrection brought in, I will be pleased.
There is definitely a future for the Jewish people and Israel — at least 1000 years! There won’t be a Judea and Ephraim divided kingdom any more, nor what we have today, which, though ‘one people’, still says, ‘What have we to do with the house of David!?’ Israel of the Millennial Kingdom (which I obviously believe in) will not be a rabbinic Jewish state or country or people, as we would understand that today or for the last 1900 years. It will be ISRAEL, a kingdom of priests, under Messiah’s rule with those out from every nation — including Israel today — who have part in the first resurrection; even Ezekiel’s detailed description of the laws, etc. of that future time differ from the Law of Moses in significant areas.
L’chaim,
Howard
T wrote:
Funny you sent me this paper because I have been working on writing an article on that subject for the last two months or so. Still, are you suggesting we should call ourselves notzrim? Unfortunatly this is no longer possible. I have said for years that the best name for us Jews who believe in Jesus is notzrim and if it wasn’t for the historical circumstances that attached this term to Christian gentiles, I would gladly adopt it.
T