This page provides opportunities for other believers to express their views. As lights in the world,we are to reflect back onto the true Source of the true Light that is now within us: Yeshua the Messiah/Jesus Christ.
You may either reply/comment to any of the reflections (it does not matter what date they were first posted),or else offer a reflection of your own. (All submitted comments may possibly be edited. Vulgar language or racist comments will not be approved.) Reflections posted will be those of their authors,not necessarily of the site administrator,who may or may not reply to all points approved for posting.
I will not always be able to respond or post immediately. Your understanding will be appreciated,and I pray that this Reflecting Pool will be helpful to walking in truth,for edification,exhortation,comfort —and for honor to the name of Yeshua/Jesus,Lord and Messiah/Christ.
MESSIANIC/CHRISTIAN MUSIC/MUSICIANS –29 Apr 2012
I would say that my “heart music”is rather eclectic,and it probably depends on the mood or situation or setting,which may also change as I am going on in my ‘personal’worship alone,or in a corporate setting. For sure,the instrumentation should not overwhelm the hearing (or the singing!) of the words.
I do think that worship leaders have a great influence on how others may or may not enter in. If it is only a matter of style,then I need to get over that and praise and worship God anyway. But sometimes it is a matter of trust:do I trust the person leading me into God’s presence? Is that what he or she is doing,or is he/she causing me to pay too much attention to him/her,or is his/her life simply not measuring up clearly enough to really believe that he/she is a “worshipper”who follows the one true God and His Son? The clothes are important to God from what is written in the Bible,so if the worship leader or others have,for example,their pants to tight,or down below their butt line;or if the women have their tops or their dresses too low or too high (and this is not always merely a subjective or a cultural issue),then they are certainly drawing attention to themselves,are not really mindful of their presence before God,and are a worrisome and uncomfortable distraction to those they are ‘leading’.
One thing that commends a teacher or a worship leader is when he/she pays attention and engages when someone else is doing the teaching,or leading the worship. I have seen many instances in numerous places where this is not the case,which suggests that it may really be all about themselves more than about the Lord. It would be so encouraging to other teachers of the Word and to other praise and worship leaders to see ‘their equals’ respect them in this way;and it would be a sign of humility to others that teachers and music leaders can receive from and appreciate one another.
As in any other ministry of the Holy Spirit,we need to grow and to mature and become more discerning. It is not really an issue of age;but no doubt “me,myself,and I” will color how I view these things;yet we all need to be learning from the Lord throughout our life spans. It is clear from Scripture that the House of God is too infiltrated by the world and the spirit of the world,so we do need to be diligent on our watch,and in our discipling of others by word and by example.
There is an appropriate form to content. For example,new wine must be put into new wineskins,not into old. And there is the pattern/form of sound words and doctrine. (2Tim 1:13) For all the good lyrics here and there in a song,the form may have nothing to commend it,and in all the frenzy I’m not so sure that the right message would be clear. Jesus and the apostles,and the prophets before them,never reached out ‘in the flesh’,nor teach us to do so,as a means to draw people to repentance and faith in the gospel,or as a means to bring back those who have fallen or retreated. That would simply promote one professing Jesus to live with lots of compromise on the commandments to “Be holy,for I,the Lord your God,am holy”,and to “love Jesus more than even ourselves”. What a mixed message!
God is dealing with the sanctification of the whole person,not less. We mature at different rates and stages,but it is the whole person that is being dealt with at all times,even if parts of the whole are out of sync in progress. Prophetic types and artists (of whatever variety) sometimes use their personalities and idiosyncrasies as excuses for ungodly manners and behavior. We may start in the Spirit,but go on in the flesh.
Many unbelievers don’t smoke or drink,aren’t depressed or given to swearing or lying,and can speak of changing from those bad habits and sins without ever knowing the Lord and Savior. Our new life in Messiah has to get beyond merely giving up those things as the proof of my being a disciple of Jesus. It is a good start,but surely there is far more (Acts 15:28-29). Our ‘message’goes far and wide beyond our immediate ‘target audience’,and we are to avoid being a cause of stumbling to others. Giving a novice too much influence too soon often wreaks havoc,with pride and confusion,rather than produce the good fruit which glorifies our Father in Heaven and the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Can’t tell you how often I am confused about how I should refer to you guys in Israel –as pastors or rabbis. I usually settle in on the one that most speaks to me as being the point of what I’m writing at the time. If it is in the capacity of shepherding the flock,I usually go with pastor. If it is in the authority structure of the congregation,I will usually write rabbi.
One thing for sure,it is always one of those stop,pause,think about the pros &cons every time the issue arises!
Paul did hold that title prior to meeting Yeshua. But as he said all his learned insight before was folly.
I agree that the term Pastor should be used rather than the term Rabbi. In my opinion those that are choosing to use the term Rabbi are trying to be more appealing to Judaism.
Every Jewish mother wants the best for their child. They want them to grow up to be happy and successful. They wouldn’t mind if they were the Messiah but a doctor or Rabbi is the next best thing. It is a status symbol.
I view the Rabbi title as Priest in the temple where the Pastor title as Shepherd.
The job of Shepherd is looked down and has been among our people since coming into the land. They look down on Shepherd’s as the Egyptians did when we entered their land.
I hold the title of Pastor and it wasn’t until God allowed me to get some goats did I fully realize that the job of tending livestock and people where very much the same.
But the bottom line on this is Yeshua teaching is clear and straight forward. We are not to be called Rabbi.
He also told us to stop sinning. Do we skirt that one as well to satisfy our egos?
Pastor or Rabbi?
Thanks,A,for this nice summary.
As for Paul,he may have indeed been a trained Rabbi,but after knowing the Lord,he sat at Yeshua’s feet.
Howard
Pastor or Rabbi?
Summary
An issue arose as to whether the apostle Paul (Saul) should be referred to as rabbi. On the one hand,he is never called rabbi in the New Covenantsc-riptures. On the other hand,he is clearly described as one who had a rabbinic-type position,had letters of authority from the High Priests (Acts 9:2;22:5),was among the leaders of Orthodox Judaism (Galatians 1:14),was a member of one of the most radical sects (Acts 26:5),and was trained in a Jerusalem Yeshiva by Gamliel (Acts 22:3).
Another related issue is whether it is appropriate to refer to Yeshua as rabbi. In the Modern Hebrew version of the gospels,Yeshua is referred to as rabbi 50 (!) times. Of those fifty,13 are from the Greek word rabbi (primarily in John),36 from didaskalos (often translated as “master”or “teacher”),and 1 from kathegetis. Verses listed above.
While none of these references represent a command to refer to Yeshua as rabbi (in contrast to such mandated terms as Messiah (Christ),Son of God (Matthew 16:16),and Lord (Romans 10:9),taken altogether they do prove the validity of using that term when appropriate to a Jewish audience or when emphasizing the historical-cultural context of the New Covenant to an international audience.
Matthew 23:8 – Do not be called “Rabbi (rabbi),for one is your Rabbi (didaskalos),the Messiah (christos),and you are all brethren.
While this verse might point to the invalidity of using the term rabbi for Messianic leaders,it might equally indicate the validity of using the term for Yeshua Himself. There is no necessity for Yeshua to be called rabbi among Gentile nations. However there is justification in using that term in order to demonstrate cultural context.
A
Pastor or Rabbi? Wed 11 Apr 01:54
I appreciate your stand for the word of God. We all need to come back to child like simplicity when it comes to obedience to his words.
I agree with what one of the brothers wrote,that Yeshua meant we should not boast. That is the main point that lays behind his commandment not to be called Rabi. But then lets also obey what this commandment says up front. Not only the principal behind.
God bless you,
D
Pastor or Rabbi? Wed 4 Apr 2012 12:18pm
Again,well done Howard. You are correct in that the concept of pride and humility are expressed,but that does not take anything away from Yeshua’s teaching. The term Rabbi has the same meaning today as it was back then. Nothing has changed. Context helps us understand elements within the text,but does not change the content of the text itself. Yeshua specifically states for us not to be called “rabbis.”If we eliminate this teaching of Yeshua,what keeps us from eliminating other teachings of Yeshua that we would like to neglect.
Blessings,
J
Pastor or Rabbi? Wed 4 Apr 2012 11:31am
Howard,i don’t disagree at all with your point–in fact,I think that is exactly what Yeshua was referring to–and some of their priestly outfits are ridiculous,competing with the pope. However,when I go with a team,I am focused on the team,a team from ISRAEL,a culture that has little respect for leadership. So I take the opportunity to teach them honor,while also explaining how much I personally dislike titles. Also,I almost always sign my emails to the leaders in Africa,‘R’. But I still address them as they prefer to be addressed,because I don’t feel that it is my place to correct them. Maybe I should be bolder in that. If I was coming to train leaders I would definitely bring it up.
Blessings and Hag Sameach!
Pastor or Rabbi? Wed 4 Apr 2012 11:16am
By the way,R,as for the Africans,I have also addressed their many titles and kings’and queens’chairs.
When they began to give me titles,I told them they could just call me Howard,and I would do the same towards them,for we are all brothers and sisters. Their whole thing of excessive honor is a ‘gentile’mentality,which Jesus told His disciples not to be like. We are to learn a Kingdom of God culture,not to bring in our own unredeemed one. Those who are not bent towards a skewed prosperity “gospel”are the most responsive,and are even released from a false sense of proving one’s worth. Yeshua brought the good news to the poor —whether in spirit or materially.
Hag sameach,
Pastor or Rabbi? Wed 4 Apr 2012 10:10am
Thanks,R. Absolutely the issue of pride and humility are involved here. And with that comes the issue of humbly accepting the teaching of the Holy Spirit,who leads us into all the truth,when it comes to temininology. The external threats we all face are a given until the end,yet Yeshua wants His house in good order. (Rev 2 &3)
When people ask me who I am,even overseas,I say I am Howard. Only if they ask me what I do do I tell them that I serve a local Messianic congregation as the pastor. If that raises a question in their mind,I am more than glad to explain to them why that term is perfectly acceptable —and it also becomes clear to Gentile and Jewish believers that we are speaking of someone who believes in Yeshua/Jesus and the New Covenant.
We also have to explain to people sometimes when we say that we are Jews,or even Israelis. For some,these terms are also problematic,yet that does not seem to trouble us. We know that they are issues of identity which are Biblical and from God for those to whom it rigthly applies.
I don’t think I am being dogmatic here,but I am,in the fear of God,not wanting to look for all kinds of human reasoning why not to simply submit to His Word,which He has seen fit to speak to us living at the end of the age. Israel is given to the Church as an example in many areas,and YHVH has brought Gentile believers into the Commonwealth of Israel (not Israel proper,in my imperfect understanding),under the welfare of the God of Israel,who is instructing them as well as us together:one new man in Messiah.
Called by many names,but go by. . .
Howard
Pastor or Rabbi? Wed 4 Apr 2012 7:11am
Dear Howard and others,
I think that the reason that the responses,as mine to you,were tongue in check,is because in light of everything else we deal with (rockets,CatC,Iran,etc) this is not a big issue in Israel as most of us,like you,are simply Howard,Avner or Ron. I am not aware of anyone in the Land who demands a title. In fact,just today I had to explain to a dear African friend that while in Africa he is Apostle so and so,here he is just so and so,we even call our PMs Bibi and Arik. However when we travel to Africa I have to tell our team members to refer to me differently,not because I need a title,but because the Africans serving us would see it as a sign of disrespect not to call someone in ministry ‘pastor’or ‘evangelist’.
Having said that,I don’t think that Yeshua is against titles. He is against inflated egos that come with titles. In Matt 23:8ff:
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher,and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father,and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors,for you have one Instructor,the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled,and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
If we take this literally,then clearly He is outlawing all titles,including Pastor or Shepherd. He is not zeroing in on rabbi…but he mentions Father,Instructor/Teacher as well. Taken literally I cannot even refer to my earthly father as father. However the heart of the passage is in verses 11 and 12 where he speaks to the need for humility. I believe He is speaking hyperbolically here,just as in Luke 14:26 when He says:
If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother,wife and children,brothers and sisters—yes,even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
Clearly the God of Love is not advocating hate,but emphasizing that our love for Him should be far greater than for any human being. Or…
When you do a charitable deed,do not let your left hand know what your right is doing (Matt. 6:3)
Because my hands don’t have brains,this is really quite impossible. The meaning is clearly:don’t be stingy in your giving.
And lastly,I hope no one takes Matt 5:29 literally,“If your right eye causes you to sin,pluck it out…”
So,seeing that Yeshua often employs hyperbole in His teaching,it is more likely that He is not doing away with titles,but seeking to deal a fatal blow to man’s ego,which loves titles. The issue,as I see it,was not titles,but the ego boost that we derive from titles,positions and promotions.
So,what about Rabbi?
I personally do not like it when Messianic leaders come from the US and judge certain Messianic expressions here in Israel as not being Jewish enough. However,I don’t think it is my place to judge how they function in their efforts to bring the good news to Jewish people abroad. In Israel,it would be foolish,certainly in Tel Aviv,to go by the term rabbi,as most secular Israelis are not looking for something that looks like the datim.
Yet,in the US,where the spiritual leader of a Jewish Community is called rabbi,I can see why some Messianic leaders feel that it is the appropriate title. My aunt,who just became a believer a few weeks ago,sends me emails raving about her rabbi. After going to a Baptist church and feeling guilty,she finally went to a Messianic congregation (that interestingly meets in the synagogue that she attended as a girl) and loves it. During those six months she wanted to give her life to Yeshua,but could not bring herself to do so. However,after one visit to the Messianic congregation,she came to faith. She loves the fact that there is Yiddishkiet and she loves her rabbi. If the rabbi there suddenly announced that he was going to now go by the term pastor,she would say,“But I thought we were Jewish.”
I would also argue that in those Messianic congregations where the term rabbi is employed,when congregants hear the word ‘rabbi’,they feel ‘shepherd’. A word is only as powerful as the meaning we give it. If you are arguing for the word Shephard/Pastor,then you have won,because these people see their rabbis as their spiritual leaders—their shepherds.
The problem is that in the wider Jewish community,a guy can’t just start a meeting and call himself rabbi. He must be trained in a rabbinical seminary. I do believe the UMJC does require significant training now before a member can use that title.
But once again,I will leave that to them. I live in Israel. I personally cringe when someone calls me Rabbi Cantor. First of all,it’s confusing…I could also be Cantor Rabbi
or if I sang better,Cantor Cantor. But because of the negative experience I had growing up in the synagogue,the term never appealed to me. But that is my personal feeling and I will let others make up their own mind. I think this is an issue where there needs to be freedom,not dogmatism. The more important issue,whether we have the title of Pastor,Rabbi or no title at all,is that we seek to serve from a humble heart.
R
Pastor or Rabbi? Wed 4 Apr 2012 9:51am
When Paul wrote to the Ephesians about the gifts of Yeshua to the congregation (our church,without getting hung up over terms),in the five-fold ministry,one of them is Pastor (shepherd in Greek). A pastor is an elder/overseer,but apparently there would be one (or more) among the elders who would be recognized as having more overall responsibility.
The elders would be appointed by those with spiritual authority;the pastor would be set apart by the Lord.
Pastor or Rabbi? Tues 3 Apr 2012 11:05pm
I think the best Biblical term is Elder. You can also have Founding Elder,or Leading Elder. In all of the congregations founded by Shaul,there were no Pastors,only Elders.
Pastor or Rabbi? Tues 3 Apr 2012 10:51pm
Yep. I agree with you on all counts. I just think what’s important is that we communicate the right concept to people’s minds. In other words,the words I choose will create the same image in the hearer’s mind,as it does in mine. If I use a word in which the hearer’s definition of that word is different than the definition of me as the speaker —that’s miscommunication. That’s why we need to worry about what people think. What they think,is what they think of Yeshua. If I communicate well,they will think of Yeshua correctly —whether they reject Him or not. Thanks for your time. I enjoy our friendship.
Pastor or Rabbi? Tues 3 Apr 2012 10:44pm
I think we worry too much what people think,J. Being called Israeli or Jew doesn’t always have a positive connotation to those we may be communicating with:not all Israel is Israel,after all. The name Christian doesn’t always ring well;yet,like Jew,it has both a badge of honor and of dishonor.
I say usually that I am a Jewish believer who believes in Jesus/Yeshua. After that they can call me what they want. I say I am Howard. If they ask me what I do,I tell them I pastor a local Messianic congregation.
Thanks for sharing,J.
Pastor or Rabbi? Tues 3 Apr 2012 10:13pm
Hi again,
I thought I would just make an additional comment with reference to what you said:
When I said it was too “Christian”,I meant that in today’s society the Jewish person would lump the term “pastor”with all the unbelieving mainline Christian denominations. They also use that term,and has been identified with them in the media. When speaking with believers,I would have no problem with using the term pastor as you correctly outlined.
As with the term “rabbi”,it is not important what I think the meaning of the term is. It’s important what the other person thinks I’m communicating. So the question becomes what does that Jewish person think of when I use the term “pastor.”If only believers used that word,I would be much more comfortable using it. I suppose for me,if I was in the US,I would simply say that I’m the leader of a Messianic congregation. I think that says it all.
Comments?
J
Pastor or Rabbi? Tues 3 Apr 2012 9:52pm
Most of the responses privately and publicly (which are not posted here) show that the problem is either dismissed or trivialized. Some Jewish believers with some influence seem to think that by using the Biblical Jewish Messianic term ‘pastor’it makes us sound too Christian. Yet it is precisely the term that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the Scriptures to use —to Israel’s shepherd-Kings and -Priests first of all.
“What advantage then has the Jew,or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.”(Rom 3:1) “For what if some ]do] not believe?
Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed ,let God be true and every man a liar!”(Rom 3:2-4a)
Is Stephen still correct as he spoke to [some] of our people as he was heading for a hail of stones thrown his way by them?:“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit;as your fathers so you!”(Acts 7:51)
In brotherly love,
Pastor or Rabbi? Tues 3 Apr 2012 7:21pm
Me,too,S!
The problem is that many Jewish believers have more affinity for our rabbinic tradition than that of Moses and the Prophets,not to mention Yeshua and the Apostles.
My friends and brothers call me Howard!
Blessings,
Pastor or Rabbi? Tues 3 Apr 2012 18:48
Of course you are right.
However,in the US,they have chosen to use the term rabbi. I
believe most of those using it,have in mind,“Jewish Leader,”
and are not thinking too,much of either the Biblical meaning or
that in current Judaic circles (one who has been trained in a
rabbinical school).
In English,shepherd is a little strange,and pastor of course has
its own connotations. The generic term,congregation leader,works,but is on the weak side.
Glad I live here.
ושמח להיות רועה קהילה בארץ!!!
Hag Sameach
S
Pastor or Rabbi? Wed 4 Apr 2012 9:18am
Dear —what? leaders? pastors? rabbis? friends?
Here is what I wrote in Messianic Jewish Manifesto in 1988:
e. Messianic Rabbis. Starting with the New Testament side of this issue,we have Mattityahu [Matthew] 23:8,where the Messiah warns his disciples,“But you are not to let yourselves be called ‘Rabbi’;because you have one Rabbi,and you are all each other’s brothers.”But a literalistic approach here seems inappropriate,since he also warns against being called “father”or “leader.”The context leads me to believe that Yeshua here prohibits believers from allowing themselves to accept unearned honors generally rather than outlawing three titles forever.
What would a “Messianic rabbi”be? Merely a pastor under another name? It seems to me again that as with “synagogue”the term “rabbi”sets up Jewish expectations which ought to be fulfilled. Therefore,someone who calls himself a Messianic rabbi,or who permits his congregation to call him that,ought to have training commensurate with that which would enable him to qualify as a rabbi in a non Messianic Jewish setting. (But in which setting Orthodox,Conservative or Reform? or is that a wrong question?) Should a Messianic rabbi have smikhah (ordination)? If so,should it be Messianic or non Messianic? If Messianic,who is qualified to give it? Where can an aspiring Messianic rabbi get the necessary training? In any case,in order not to embarrass the Messianic Jewish movement,I urge leaders without rabbinic training to resist letting themselves be called “Rabbi.”(In other contexts,assuming an unearned title is tantamount to fraud —if you don’t think so,
try advertising yourself as a medical doctor without an M.D. degree,and see what happens.)
(FYI:The current title of this book is Messianic Judaism —A Modern Movement with an Ancient Past. The Hebrew translation of the book is called ?יהדות משיחית —מהי)
David Stern
Pastor or Rabbi? Tues 3 Apr 18:56
Howard,
Interestingly I was lead to mention this same violation of calling leaders Rabbi,in my message two weeks ago. I called Paul a Dr. Dr. Paul …..
One of the members started giggling. I stopped and asked him why are you giggling….. Then came the punch line:
Why do we giggle when Paul is called a Dr. But we stay at ease when he is called a Rabbi?
D